Case in point against UH hoops in Mountain West
By dreardon
This ridiculous road trip that the University of Hawaii basketball team is now stumbling through is a perfect example of why UH is fortunate to be going into the Big West next season.
Far-flung games at Montana, New Mexico State and Louisiana Tech don’t make sense for competitive and financial reasons. Losses by scores of 94-79 and 115-73 with one still to go at LaTech are the result.
The bracket buster joke at Montana was unavoidable because ESPN dictated it. But this should serve as a warning for advocates of all UH sports being in the Mountain West rather than just football.
Traversing the Mountain West wouldn’t be much better, with outposts in places like Wyoming — and with the new alliance with Conference USA, is there any guarantee the Rainbow Warriors wouldn’t be sent farther east, to some place like say, oh, Ruston, Louisiana?
The Big West makes sense for Hawaii because the schools are in California. Plain and simple.
Quick Reads
February 24th, 2012 at 1:42 pm
I disagree for two reasons, Dave:
1. Hawaii has played at Ruston and Las Cruces for years. NMSU and LaTech also had to come play here. I think the recent lopsided scores were due to the fact that Hawaii played horribly. We shouldn’t use geography as an excuse.
2. (More importantly…) The MWC is a far better conference than the Big West. Currently, the MWC is about 5 or 6 in terms of the RPI rankings, while the Big West is 24th. When Hawaii joins the Big West, I fear that over time the progam will drop to the level of its member schools. Sorta like how La Tech was once a power in women’s basketball, but has reached a low after spending so many years in the WAC.
We’ll see, though!
February 24th, 2012 at 1:54 pm
Yes, you’re right, we have been playing at NMSU for some years now. You should also mention we’ve yet to win there.
February 24th, 2012 at 2:06 pm
further, the new MWC/CONUSA, will have better basketball teams than the Big West, so from a competitive standpoint, higher level in the MW. But, because recruiting is tough, maybe, the Big West would suit UH better, playing lower level competition and being in the mix. In the new MWC, UH might be bottom feeders and this would affect attendance very much. Travel costs in the MWC will be higher.
February 24th, 2012 at 2:09 pm
I agree with Lance on #1 but I do agree with you on the Big West on a different basis. Hawaii is a mediocre basketball team at best. They have the talent to be a very good team but I don’t think Arnold’s play coaching is very effective. Turning the rock over too many times, weak defense and lazy board play is a sign to me that the coaching is lacking. Especially with the amount of talent he has on the team. Scoring is never an issue with talented players but defense and ball control is all about coaching. Riley Wallace’s team never lacked these principles on his watch no matter what kind of talent he had on the bench.
The New Mexico loss as embarassing as it may be is what the fans should expect in the coming years if the coaching does not improve. Gib Arnold is a great recruiter but he needs help with the X’s & O’s and teaching his kids ball control fundementals.
February 24th, 2012 at 2:27 pm
Watching that game on the internet was terrible. The coach after these two losses should be on a month to month contract
February 24th, 2012 at 2:59 pm
Lance T: the MWC’s RPI will drop once SDSU leaves. UNLV and UNM might carry them, but they won’t be what they are this year, especially if UNLV and UNM go back to having average seasons. If you are going to look ahead for UH, you need to look ahead for the MWC too. Plus, you talk about Hawaii becoming a weaker team because they are somehow moving downwards in terms of competition. You have to remember that we aren’t leaving the MWC – we are leaving the WAC! is the Big West with the addtions of Hawaii AND SDSU that much weaker than the WAC? I really don’t think so.
And then, you talk about travel and how it is cancelled out by other teams having to come here. Well, they only have to come here ONCE while UH has to travel across the pacific for EVERY road game, so it is not a wash by any means. Also, travelling TO Hawaii is less of a challenge than travelling FROM Hawaii, because UH loses 3-4 hours every time they travel east of the Pacific Timezone. Teams coming here gain a couple of hours which allows them to make up some rest time. There’s a definitely a difference there.
February 24th, 2012 at 4:20 pm
The Big West is not a BB conference even if SD st joins it, they have their games in High School Gyms not arenas, and Lance was right RPI is higher with Mtn West teams, we would be better off for men’s bb to move to that conference, Portnoy also is a supporter for that move. Attendance may suffer as a result of the no names that will be Big West Opponenst like Cal Poly, Fullerton and Northridge. No excitement or rivalries there.
February 24th, 2012 at 4:27 pm
Yes, the Big West makes sense geographically. But who cares about Big West teams? Nobody. At least in the WAC, there’s consistent winning programs like Nevada, Utah St., Fresno St., etc. Who’s in the Big West that deserves mention? How many NCAA tourney wins does the Big West have? How many appearances in the past decade? No more than 10, I’ll tell you that.
February 24th, 2012 at 4:50 pm
Calling the Montana game “ridiculous” is infantile. No one would be saying that if UH was 22-2 entering a showdown at Creighton on ESPN. Sometimes you have to take the licks necessary to stay afloat as a mid-major. No game that counts in the record tally is meaningless. And it’s not like Hawaii got thrashed by a garbage team- Montana has a good shot to play in the tourney this year. The Bracketbusters are a good thing to be a part of. Can’t always have it your way.
February 24th, 2012 at 5:20 pm
How about this: UH only plays local teams made up of semi-pros. Save even more money and travel time, right Dave?
February 24th, 2012 at 5:20 pm
i dont usually respond to other blogs, but i see where Jay has mentioned me in his response. I have consistently said that joining the Big West in basketball is a bad move. It is a second rate conference, not close to the Mountian West and Conference USA. It has no television contract and small arenas. Even if San Diego State joins, which i still have doubts about, it is small time basketball. If all folks care about is a winning record, short road trips, and the possibility of winning the conference and being a number 14 seed in the NCAA tournament, then the Big West is it. But if you want to play good teams in real arenas on TV, then there is no issue. By the way, dont blame travel for the last two games. There is lots more to blame than that.( see my blog of today).
February 24th, 2012 at 5:23 pm
While the issue remains moot and DR restates the correct conclusion– the actual reasoning for Big West selection, differs.
Cost became a huge factor–both for visiting WAC teams and for Hawaii.
For Hawaii, getting there was more of a problem than playing there.
While the hometeam will always have the edge, Hawaii’s problems were compounded by travel expenses and multi-city connections that often had an Indiana Jones type mystique…. The Big West was a great solution. Especially for our non revenue sports, which includes every program except a few. The BWC is a one-stop plane ride. No more multi-city connections and long layovers.
It’s worth repeating again, getting there was more of a problem than playing there.
February 24th, 2012 at 5:41 pm
Portney raises an interesting question that has been debated for ages.
Big fish in a small pond or the opposite. Although, I would contend, attrition has eroded any glimmer the WAC once possessed.
BTW, Long Beach aint a bad team and we will be playing in fertile recruiting grounds.
However, the reality of conference selection is not grounded in cosmetics.
But rather, in budget….and what is available for Hawaii to hang its hat–for the entirety, save football.
Apparently, San Diego ST came to the same conclusion–they should pump up the BWC’s RPM.
From what is circulating through conference realignments, there are other programs, too, seeking shelter in the BWC.
February 24th, 2012 at 6:20 pm
I like what Aloha Friday wrote, especially about lazy board play.
February 24th, 2012 at 6:41 pm
It all depends on what you believe: Will UH and SDSU raise up the quality level of the Big West? Or will the Big West slowly suck the life out of UH and SDSU? I’m guessing it’s the latter.
One more thing: Like someone else previously mentioned, no one cares about the Big West. The conference is full of “UC This” and “UC That.” My prediction is that what U will C is more empty seats at the Stan Sheriff Center.
February 24th, 2012 at 7:08 pm
One of the points of my stance is that the Mountain West teams overall aren’t very much more attractive … not enough to justify the excessive travel … and the likely road losses.
February 24th, 2012 at 7:11 pm
Also the recruiting advantages of playing in the Los Angeles area. Parents would rather drive to see their son play at the so-called “high school gyms” of the Big West than flying and stage coaching to Wyoming and Fort Collins . (although, granted, they might not mind going to games at UNLV).
February 25th, 2012 at 10:00 am
Although the move to the Big West may look to some as lacking in “star” quality, it seems to be a very practical move recruiting-wise, financially and very importantly, travel-wise. I disagree with Lance T’s pessimistic assessment. I see the Big West moving way up from # 24 within 2 years. We’ll see who’s right. As for some who questions Gib’s coaching acumen, we wouldn’t be having this discussion if Gerry Blakes and Dillon Biggs had been playing for us. Talent has a huge bearing on peoples’ perception of the coaches’ ability. Next year, watch what happens when Fotu, Dressler, Stanhardinger, Orel Lev and others join the fold. I expect to see improvement from guys like Shaq, Miles and others as well and hopefully, Vander will stick around. As the team is able to implement what Gib envisions, the wins will come. As the wins pile up and people see that UH is playing an entertaining brand of ball, they’ll start turning out even if all the teams aren’t big names. “If you build it, they will come.”
February 25th, 2012 at 10:09 am
The question is: Would we even have been invited to join the MWC in basketball? Their members might be looking at Hawaii the same way that some of the bloggers are looking at the BWC teams. We here love our bball team and feel that they can do well in any conference, but the reality is that they have not been doing well enough to make other conferences drool at the thought of getting Hawaii basketball into their conference. As in football, win and they wil come. Just my $0.02.
February 25th, 2012 at 1:24 pm
Hypothetically speaking: UH goes 18-0 in the Big West and wins the regular season championship, but loses in the tournament title game; It’s hello, NIT. In the Mountain West, go 12-4 and you get an at-large bid to the Big Dance, not the consolation tournament. Bottom line: If the NIT is the annual goal, the BWC is the perfect home because it’s been a one-bid ticket to the NCAAs for years.
February 25th, 2012 at 6:21 pm
We should just be concerned about winning regardless of what conference UH plays in. Right now they are playing below mediocre. They really suck on the road.
February 26th, 2012 at 5:11 am
I’m with lofa. Talk is cheap. Let’s win the Big West three or four times – like Boise dominated the WAC before leaving for the MWC – then we can talk about looking for a better conference. Right now, under Gib, Hawaii is an average team in a mediocre conference playing one of the worst strength of schedules in the nation. Big West seems about right for that level of college hoops.
February 26th, 2012 at 10:23 am
I heartly agree with ALOHA FRIDAY, Coach Gibb is a great recruiter, but something is lacking in the x and O’s of game time coaching. Also, knowing the problem is good but having a solution to make the playing good is awesom…Coach Gibb, does need help in this area. And blaming the players for the bad games, seems to be the Coach’s MO. All losts are the Coaching staff, the players dont call the plays or decides who plays. Hey win the wac tournament(which is possible), I will admit my mistakes,but the coaches decision has direct caused a lost of a game 2011 San francisco. enug said
February 26th, 2012 at 3:52 pm
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February 27th, 2012 at 2:34 am
Thanks Dave, great perspective that no one wants to talk about because it is admitting that we are just a struggling mid-major and always will be unless we get to play in the Big West. Then we will still be a mid-major but at least we won’t have to struggle and grind the kids down all season.
February 27th, 2012 at 1:17 pm
This goes to show that of all the revenue sports.. Only ONE matters.
For the sum of all parts the Big West is most cost-effective and best available option for UH’s non-football sports at the time and still looks to be that way. Yes we have to pay travel subsidies to BWC schools, but who’s convince anyone that the MWC travel subsides for basketball (for example) would be cheaper or even at the same amount.
I know people keep wishing for the MWC to pick men’s hoops, BUT I am pretty sure that without men’s hoops in the BWC, UH couldn’t join that conference for other sports and while most won’t care about where the other sports go, one has to take into account that without those other sports surviving UH as an ENTIRE D1 institution would fail to mee the requirements needed by the NCAA to be classified as a D1 insitution.
February 27th, 2012 at 1:18 pm
We should TRULY appreciate the fact that all of UH’s programs are ok for now with a home in secure conferences.
Now back to the norm and worrying about coaches fulfilling their duties of securing wins for their program.
February 29th, 2012 at 11:25 am
i like your post but cant you please be more specific next time not veryone is an expert like you
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